Friday, April 26, 2013

The Logical Fallacy of Transgender

In all of the silliness that has gone on today, what with Mr. "Autumn" Sandeen's complete meltdown, and Mr."Cristan" Williams comment on it, I saw something that I should have commented on.  And that was the central issue that I am trying to get people to see.

Sandeen was carrying on because I commented that he would not respond to challenges.  I have seen Williams try to use logical fallacies and intellectual dishonesty to avoid dealing with real issues.  And I realized, they have no choice.

At the core of the transgender paradigm is "self identification."  A transsexual who posts as Aunty Orthodox confronted Sandeen over this.  She was debating Sandeen about MWMF and the issue of who is and is not a woman...
After some back and forth, I asked specifically about Kirk Sneade, a college student who published a manifesto which included this bullet:
  • Kirk Sneade has self defined as a woman ever since he realised it gave him legal access to the women’s changing rooms at the Bloomsbury gym.
Does Autumn Sandeen support Kirk Sneade, a self-identified woman, as an attendee to MWMF? Seems crazy, doesn’t it? Autumn would not address the question, instead choosing to talk about equality, and yadda yadda.
Autumn avoided two pointed questions. The first is, what is a self-identified woman? Her refusal to answer suggests that we both agree that Kirk Sneade is not a woman, even though he meets the criteria for self-identifying as one.
The second is whether women can define who is allowed to be a part of women’s-only space. An organizer may want to exclude male-bodied persons, or even female-bodied trans women from their space (e.g., MWMF, Radfem 2013). That’s their right. Autumn disagrees
But what is a woman? Is Kirk Sneade a woman? See how circular this is? If Kick Sneade, a self-identified woman, can enter women’s space, who can’t? Shouldn’t women decide who gets to be included in women’s space?
I have to say, this was absolutely brilliant.  I would challenge any who wish to defend transgender politics to answer this simple paradox.  Clearly, Kirk Sneade is not a woman.  Right?  Well, if he isn't, and you claim someone like Sandeen is, how can this be?  Sandeen's ONLY claim to being a woman is, after twenty years of successful service as a man, in a man's role, in the US Navy, he decided he wanted to be a woman and started self-identifying as one.  Now, he will, of course, claim that he was always a woman, and such, but I call foul on that.  Trust me, I know.  I had a miserable life before I transitioned. I would not have lasted 20 minutes in the Navy, let alone 20 years.  

If all it takes to be a woman is to self-identify as one, then by that standard, Kirk Sneade is a woman.  But clearly Kirk Sneade is not a woman.  No one, except a true fanatic, would say he is.  But if he is not, where is the line?  And who gets to draw it?  Sandeen would not answer this, because Sandeen cannot answer this.  Would Sandeen insist that people MUST use female pronouns to refer to Kirk Sneade?  After all, Sneade says he is a woman?  That is the same standard as Sandeen claims.  Would Sandeen demand that Kirk Sneade be admitted to MWMF?  Probably...  But that is a bit different matter.  And here is the real kicker.  Would he insist that be allowed in the women's changing rooms?  If not, Sandeen's entire paradigm falls apart.  If so, then Sandeen has shown he has no concept of how women think or feel. And with that the transgender house of cards collapses...

Women, quite frankly, don't "self-identify" as women.  We just are.  Sandeen will call foul, perhaps, or someone else might, and they are welcome to do so.  But ask any woman to really explain what makes her a woman, and that is the answer you will ultimately get.  It is not an identity.  It is a reality.  A reality that Kirk Sneade, and let's be honest, Sandeen, have never, and will never, experience.  So. all they can claim is, "I self-identify" as a woman.  And I am sorry. but that just doesn't cut it.

So, what is the moral of all this?  It is simple. One is a woman, if, and really only if, one is able to actually life in society as a woman.  Not a transwoman, not as transgender, but just as a woman.  I do, and so do a lot of transsexuals who have completed transition and moved on.   

24 comments:

Nicky said...

In which the Trans community is built on a house of lies and scams. Where if the truth is known about the lies and scams trans people like Mr. "Autumn" Sandeen, Mr."Cristan" Williams and Zoe Allen Brain play on people. Their ideology will collapse on them and bring the down fall of the transgender community. Which would result in showing their true logical fallacy.

Rosenkreuz said...

And thus, we see the wonders of the eis atopon apagoge (or reductio ab absurdum) argument. Well done.

The theoretical premises of the ideological "Transgender" construct make it so that Sneade or, hell, myself as a 6'2, 240 pound black male with lots of male secondary sex characteristics can throw on a dress and demand that society regard me as female. Hell, I don't even need to bother with the dress.

I don't even need to put on a fig leaf of transition (as Sandeen does, even if it is obvious that he is not interested in assimilating as a woman, the fig leaf is there) - I can simply declare myself a woman, and society must accept me as such, within this paradigm.

The only "male" aspect of the post-transition/post-SRS transsexual female is chromosomal makeup, and and that would make AIS females and Swyer females male, which is ridiculous. The common denominator is the neurological makeup expressing itself as female gender, which is not an adopted identity, but a lived reality (though social conditioning can partially suppress this reality for a time, at the cost of psychological stability and absolutely dismal life outcomes)

Rosenkreuz said...

Also Nicky, do you think that a broad label of "intersex" applies to transsexuals? Obviously I think so but seeing by your posts you suggest you are intersex, so I'd like to ask your opinion.

Nicky said...

@Rosenkreuz
I don't think so because Intersex from a medical and scientific perspective means one has to have the physical and genetic DNA signs of Intersex. Which means on a DNA level, they have to be medically and scientifically tested for Intersex by DNA. On the medical exam, have to show clear physiological and biological signs of intersex that can be seen physically. Which is why the Intersex label can't and will never be applied to transsexuals because they don't meet the medical and scientific definition of Intersex.

Just Jennifer said...

Why thank you...

Yes, it does become a bit metaphysical I suppose, but there is a boundary between men and women that cannot be so easily ignored as Sandeen wishes.

Just Jennifer said...

There are good arguments both ways on the question of whether or not transsexualism is, or is mot, a form of intersex. Of course, the transgender extremists, who want to justify what is clearly a chosen o behavior try to co-opt both. Transsexualism does clearly have a physical basis, and like some forms of intersex is caused by hormonal anomalies in utero.

Rosenkreuz said...

@Nicky

I see your point. At the same time, consider this quote from Milton Diamond (who I understand is rather important to the study of intersex)

"Transsexuals have no apparent anatomical traits that are of the opposite sex, they have typical genitalia appropriate for their natal sex but, I think, their brain is somehow predisposed to code for the opposite sex and they are thus, by our previous definition, intersexed."

The whole interview is here, it's actually quite illuminating.

http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/2000to2004/2002-conversation.html

Also:

"One major component of the diagnosis that separates this GID and transsexuals from all the other groups subsumed under the term transgenderd is that only the transsexual feels he or she is rightly a member of the opposite sex and persistently wants surgery and hormones to effect a sex reassignment. And while Drag Queens, transvestites and others might have some aspects of gender confusion or dis-ease or dis-order, they don't fit the medical definition of GID. One problem you may be reacting to is that the word "disorder" has negative connotations. In the medical definition the term reflects the psychological distress which the transsexual usually shows."

This is rather old - keep in mind that this is talking about David Reimer before his suicide.

Nicky said...

if we take the current known medical and scientific definition of what Intersex is, I doubt Trans would ever come close to meeting it. Maybe when we're at the level of star trek or star wars medical technology, then we may have a clear distinction. As of now, were only at the Molecular genetic DNA level.

Of course, you gona have transgender extremists, who will constantly try to co-opt Intersex people & Intersex conditions to justify & legitimize their fragile ideology. You see it all the time, and you see it within the transgender extremists. They constantly use Intersex people to justify themselves and their behavior at the expense of Intersex people like me.

Rosenkreuz said...

Fair enough, it's more of an academic discussion anyway. Transsexualism doesn't *need* to be an intersex condition, and it'd probably muddy the waters until we can directly look at neurological structures and say "Aha, this is a female brain" and "Aha, this is a male brain". Right now, all we have are hints (like BTSc sex differences and digit ratios and such).

The issue is that people would attempt to invalidate transsexualism due to the presence of that Y chromosome, or genial non-ambiguity or such, so I'm really looking for a clear, no interpretation dividing line between transsexuality and transgender that anyone can understand.

Just Jennifer said...

Well, the simple bottom line is, transgender is chosen behavior, which has never been considered a valid basis for legal protection. For example, a person might have some legal protection under certain laws for the disease of alcoholism, but not for the act of being a drunk. A person who is schizophrenic is covered by disability law, but if a person who is a pedophile claims he should be protected, it won't carry any weight. They need to create the illusion of a legitimate basis for bad behavior.

For me, the big difference between transgender and transsexual is that transsexuals generally just want a reasonably normal life. Transgender people want to be transgender.

Rosenkreuz said...

Well, I suppose it's a simple enough explanation for most people - there's a lot of work to do in regards to unmuddying the waters.

Right now, when people hear the word "transgender" they think of a transsexual person, not anybody else under the "umbrella". So when they see a Sandeen or a Williams, they think that everyone under the umbrella (that has now had transsexuals shoehorned in) are like that. We all know this. What's needed is simple, easily relatable comparisons and contrasts so that the whole umbrella concept can be broken through.

Basically, transsexuals need some good PR.

Just Jennifer said...

Yes, the waters have become very muddied. Part of the problem is, there are an awful lot of transgender people, and relatively few transsexuals. That is the irony of it all. You have this huge mass of people trying to hide behind a relatively small handful. That is why they get so upset with we refuse to go along. They are afraid people will realize the truth...

Nicky said...

The waters have been muddied, no thanks to the Transgender kooks such as Zoe Allen Brain. There are a lot of Transgender kooks who have been known to use Intersex people to justify and legitimize their existence at intersex people's expense. Even now, the trans kooks are bashing Intersex people for speaking up against them and against their fragile ideology. Sooner or later their fallacy will be their downfall.

Just Jennifer said...

I have seen those like Zoe Brain referred to as "kitchen sink" intersexuals. They just sort of make it all up. I know a lot of transsexuals try to claim to have various genetic anomalies like Klienfelter Syndrome, even though it has nothing to do with being transsexual, and gender identity is rarely an issue with such people. Even Sandeen had hopes of having it.

Apparently they think it will make them "more" real.

Nicky said...

I have seen those types, and they think by claiming an intersex, it will make them look more real and more legit. Apparently, it's a common skill for them to try and claim an intersex as justification for their trans. They must think that being intersex is more real than being trans. Which is why Intersex people like me get pissed off, when you have people like Zoe Allen brain going around pretending to be intersex, in order to justify their transsexualism.

Bryce Bastion said...

Let me just say, in rebuttle to your arguments: Transgender individuals experience what is known as "Gender dysphoria" is which they are unable to accept the reality that their body is male, and they change that body because they are able to accept themselves as a Female in a female body. Cis-gendered individuals cannot relate because they were living in the body they identified with since birth, making their self-identification innate and indistinguishable. Cis-gendered individuals have no juristiction in this area because they literally cannot relate since they know no feeling other than complete acceptance of their birth gender.

Just Jennifer said...

Actually, "gender dysphoria" has nothing to do with being transgender. Transgender, again, is an artificial political/social construct. It tries to claim those with "gender dysphoria," among other terms, but the overwhelming majority of those who identify as transsexual are perfectly happy with their birth sex, and their gender is in alignment with their bodies. They just like to play dress up, and some, usually older crossdressers, may get carried away and decide to go full time, but they really do not have "gender dysphoria." BTW, that is a silly term. I am quite happy with my gender (which has always been, and always will be, female), it was my birth sex that I had a problem with. And again, most 'transgender" people are perfectly happy with their birth sex.

Excom said...

Ok, so gender binary is forced on people and is a logical fallacy to proclaim there are only 2 genders. There are many options to gender besides man and women because it is a mental construct. They should have 3 bathrooms people that are women, people that are men and people that identity as neither or in between.

We define a transsexual as some one that has changed their bodies to match their already female minds. They lack the ability to menstruate and give birth. Some natural women cannot give birth but they are still women.It comes down to a persistent desire to live a female life since you are very young that does not go away until you kill yourself or transition that is what transgender is for me a life decision to live as a female. I'm not here to argue just adding my impute thank you.

Just Jennifer said...

I'm sorry I didn't get your comment up sooner. I must have missed the notification,

Sorry, but "gender," which is NOT a "mental construct" is binary. You confuse something that is biological with something that is behavioral.

And you are misusing the term "logical fallacy,," which does not mean "something I disagree with." Now, your conflating "transgender" with "transsexual" IS a logical fallacy. As is your silly attempt to redefine "transsexual" as something less than it really is. If you have not had, or are seeking SRS, you are not a transsexual. If you are willingly living openly as a "transgender" your claim of being transsexual would also be highly suspect.

Excom said...

Thank you for your time I appreciate the great conversation.One day I'll be a beautiful women. :)

Just Jennifer said...

Well, if nothing else, it is clear you are delusional. But hey, thanks for playing.

Excom said...

You are to busy belittling to have a rational conversation Let me reword that Gender as a binary is a mental construct. In the preamble, "gender identity" is understood to refer to each person's deeply felt internal and individual experience of gender, which may or may not correspond with the sex assigned at birth, including the person's sense of the body (which may involve, if FREELY CHOSEN, modification of bodily appearance or function by medical, surgical or other means) and other experience of gender, including dress, speech and mannerism. Some people are transgender which is someone that has not changed the body to match the gender they feel inside. A transsexual is someone that has or is going through a medical transition to change there body to match their individual sense of gender. There are many different reasons why people choose to live openly transgender without changing the body. Evidence suggests that people who identify with a gender different from the one they were assigned at birth may do so not just due to psychological or behavioral causes, but also biological ones related to their genetics, the makeup of their brains, or prenatal exposure to hormones. Just stop with your hate speech already.

Just Jennifer said...

Well, I would counter that "non-binary" gender is the mental construct. Put another way, it is a rather silly cry for attention.

As to "freely chosen," you clearly have no understanding of the transsexual experience.

Beyond that, you are correct that there is a difference between "transsexual," which is defined by a deeply felt need for surgical correction as part of a larger need to correct what is, in effect, a birth defect, and "transgender" which is basically a fad involving acting out and imposing one's self on society by flaunting societal norms, and in general, being an obnoxious prick.

Transgender is simply bad behavior, and really has nothing to do with brain structures. It is simply a choice to misbehave.

And being blunt, and honest, about these things is not hate speech. I really get tired of people who trot out that bit of silliness as an attempt to avoid the truth.

Just Jennifer said...

Well, I would counter that "non-binary" gender is the mental construct. Put another way, it is a rather silly cry for attention.

As to "freely chosen," you clearly have no understanding of the transsexual experience.

Beyond that, you are correct that there is a difference between "transsexual," which is defined by a deeply felt need for surgical correction as part of a larger need to correct what is, in effect, a birth defect, and "transgender" which is basically a fad involving acting out and imposing one's self on society by flaunting societal norms, and in general, being an obnoxious prick.

Transgender is simply bad behavior, and really has nothing to do with brain structures. It is simply a choice to misbehave.

And being blunt, and honest, about these things is not hate speech. I really get tired of people who trot out that bit of silliness as an attempt to avoid the truth.