Aunty OrthodoxI thought that one was particularly silly. Sandeen, and other transgender extremists really are trying to destroy women's space. They cannot stand the idea that there are places that "women with penises" are not allowed. Sandeen needs to understand, women don't have penises, at least not that they want to keep. I would argue that transsexual woman is a woman, even before surgery, but that is not the case with Sandeen. When he first burst onto the seen, he was an avowed non-op. Then, he became a "surgery-tracked transsexual." Then, he decided that having his testicles removed was enough. He is back to being a Arnold Lowman-style, "woman with a penis," or more precisely, a transvestite. But, he is apparently quite delusional, or terribly dishonest...
@AutumnSandeen Alright, go for it. More power to you, to Camp Trans and so forth. But from my POV, you're working to destroy women's space.
Autumn Sandeen
@auntyorthodox No. I'm working to expand women's space to include all women.
Autumn SandeenSandeen also needs to understand that he is NOT and never will be a woman, no matter what his fraudulent birth certificate says. And you have to love that male attitude that say, "I don't care, the rules don't apply to me...." He is going to decide what criteria applies in his case.
@auntyorthodox My birth certificate says I was born female - therefore for attendance purposes I'm going to consider my gender identity.
Now, particularly enjoyed this next exchange. First let me set it up by providing a little background about the person mentioned....
Kirk Sneade is an undergraduate at University College, London (UCL), who, along with his "campaign team" were branded as being"misogynist pricks" by other students after he made a controversial run for a campus office.
First, he uploaded a video of a woman being punched by a man and a photo with the slogan "memes are gay". Then, Sneade, who has the audacity to claim he is the victim of discrimination, compared his situation to the persecution of communists in Nazi Germany.
This is his original manifesto:
- Kirk Sneade has self defined as a woman ever since he realised it gave him legal access to the women's changing rooms at the Bloomsbury gym.
- Kirk wants to make clear his desire to attend all Women's forums to talk about Important Woman Issues such as hair dressing, shopping and walking sassily away from confrontations with your exes.
- Kirk understands the need for equality. He wants to campaign to encourage women of UCL to wear leggings, jeggings and summer-time denim hot-pants.
- Kirk would also like to formally change the name of the Print-Room Cafe to the Pretty-Girl Cafe, and launch an official enquiry into why there are so many pretty girls in the cafe compared to the rest of UCL and what can be done about it.
- More speculatively, Kirk also suggests perhaps herding up the pretty girls you see around campus and keeping them ready for emergency transport to the Roxy later on when things start to get a little dry.
- Kirk is worried that people may see this manifesto as sexist. Kirk wants to make clear that while it is sexier than most, you should probably have a look at the others because some of them are pretty sexy as well.
- Kirk also wants to campaign for reinstatement of the Varsity rugby match, campaign against student politics being full of students who are out of touch with the student body and start the dissolution of the Women's officer position as it an inherently sexist and outmoded position of power within the union.
Now, with that in mind, consider this next bit:
Aunty Orthodox @AutumnSandeen "self-identified" doesn't seem like an adequate condition for actually gaining access to women's-only space.
Autumn Sandeen @auntyorthodox Well, who -- in the broad sense of who -- decides how to police women's space, and who polices it?
Aunty Orthodox @AutumnSandeen I'd think it should be the organizers of the space, right?
Autumn Sandeen @auntyorthodox As I said - yes, they get to decide. But, trans community, of which I'm a part, get to engage in free speech & action too.
Aunty Orthodox @AutumnSandeen If you were in a women's-only space, would you welcome Kirk Sneade?
Autumn Sandeen@auntyorthodox Now who's personalizing? Btw, that argument is the example of the KKK fallacy. http://ht.ly/k2p6s
Aunty Orthodox
@AutumnSandeen You're evading my question, and now you're bringing up the KKK? Please be serious.
Autumn Sandeen @auntyorthodox No no no. There is a logical fallacy called the KKK fallacy. It's in essence one that claims that...
Autumn Sandeen @auntyorthodox ...that are a number of black criminals, then all black people are dangerous and should be discriminated against..a fallacy.
Autumn Sandeen @auntyorthodox No no no. There is a logical fallacy called the KKK fallacy. It's in essence one that claims that...
Autumn Sandeen @auntyorthodox ...that are a number of black criminals, then all black people are dangerous and should be discriminated against..a fallacy.
Autumn Sandeen @auntyorthodox ...that are a number of black criminals, then all black people are dangerous and should be discriminated against..a fallacy.Okay, there is so much silliness here.... First off, Sandeen tries, again, to avoid the real question, which is basically, by what right does he claim to be a woman? While the most extreme of radical feminists take an extremist position that basically ignores science....well, so does Sandeen. The feminists say that it is all about socialization. They very much adhere to the "blank slate" theory. That we all start out as blank slates, and our "gender" is written upon us based on socialization. And that since we are all socialized based on what is between our legs at birth, that determines whether we are truly men or women. That is, men are men because they are raised to be men, and women are women, because they are raised to be women. Of course, science has proven this completely false. The transgender extremists claim that simply because they claim to be women, and in some cases, claim to have "female brains," we have to take their word for it, even if they also state that they want to keep their male genitalia intact. Science has also proven them to be wrong as well. Those, like Sandeen, who claim to be "women with penises," expect people to take their word for it, even when they clearly, and unequivocally, act like men.
But that is only half of what is going on here. Now, no one would ever, seriously, suggest that Snead is a "transgender." He is clearly a misogynistic man, who has a serious delusion as to how funny he is. Simply put, he isn't remotely.... But the problem that Sandeen tap dances around is, "If the transgender extremist have their way, who do you keep someone like Snead out of women's spaces?" He states that he self-identifies as a woman. Even though he clearly does not, how do you "prove" this? How can you seriously differentiate between him, and Sandeen? That is a problem for Sandeen.
And it is not solved by straw arguments like "the Klan Fallacy." There are serious differences between "skin color" and "sex." They are not comparable. That is why we have different laws to deal with the two. There is NO rational basis for discrimination based on skin color, but there is for discriminating, in certain limited situations, on the basis of sex. It is irrational to claim that one has a right to be "uncomfortable" sharing a rest room with someone of another race, but it is not irrational to desire to keep someone of the opposite sex out of the restroom, or more importantly, locker rooms and showers.
As to the "Klan Fallacy," that is simply a straw argument tossed about by kooks like Mr. "Cristan" Williams, and Sandeen. It has no application here.
Here is another interesting exchange...
Aunty Orthodox@AutumnSandeen Alright, go for it. More power to you, to Camp Trans and so forth. But from my POV, you're working to destroy women's space.
Autumn Sandeen @auntyorthodox ...is by intention defining women's space as not including of one kind of woman. Just as evil as it would be to exclude..
Aunty Orthodox @AutumnSandeen It's not evil. If there is evil, it is forcing women to lose their safe space to people who only "claim" to be women.
Autumn Sandeen @auntyorthodox ...and I can see now you're one of the bigots. I actually pity you...you're now on the wrong side of history.
Aunty Orthodox @AutumnSandeen And trans activists who refuse to acknowledge womens' rights to create exclusive spaces are actually harming women.
Autumn Sandeen @auntyorthodox ..your beliefs. To be true to my belief on how to combat antitrans sentiment, I must see your belief system crushed.
A couple of interesting points... Disagree with Mr. Sandeen, and he instantly calls you a bigot. Even if what you are doing is simply defining women's space as not including men. I mean, really, Mr. Sandeen's only claim to being a woman is basically "because I say so." That is one of those issues he keeps avoiding. And then there is his classic fallback to violent language. He has to "crush" Aunty Orthodox's belief system. Crush... Kind of scary. And I should point out, nowhere in any of this debate does Aunty Orthodox come across as a radical feminist. Perhaps she is, but I see no evidence of it.
The bottom line to this whole thing is summed up in this exchange....
Aunty Orthodox @Autumn Sandeen This isn't about equality though. It's about women having the power to establish safe spaces, however they define that.
Autumn Sandeen @auntyorthodox Ordinary equality means trans women are treated as other women..white, black, Hispanic, disabled, veteran..fill in the blank.Sandeen could care less about safe spaces for women, as he is not one. He is a man, and he thinks like a man, including the belief that he what he wants is all that matters. And, more to the point, "trans women" are not remotely women. To compare "trans" to things like "white, black, Hispanic, disabled, veteran" is absurd. By its very nature, "trans" indicates that they are men, and they want to continue to identify as men. I am a woman, not a "trans woman." Yes, I am a white woman, I am a Christian woman, I am a disabled woman...but those do not directly address my being a woman. To say one is a "trans woman," on the other hand, is to make a statement that expands to "Well, I am really a man, who identifies as being a woman, but I cling to my identity as a man while still claiming to 'really be a woman.'" Yeah, well, that's nice, now please, stay out of women's spaces....because you don't belong there.
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6 comments:
You have to question the mental health of anybody who goes against physical facts of biology to insist they are a woman, Sandeen has a dick that makes him a MAN. The fact he insists he is a woman makes him mentally ill, he should be institutionalized or at the very least placed in a group home for the mentally ill.
Anne
I have longed wondered if Sandeen is crazy, or just perverted.
Could be both.
That is a distinct possibility...
Careful with that line of thought, Anne.
Fundies will simply say "YOUR Y CHROMOSOME (not your neurological wiring because that shit's too complicated) MAKES YOU A MAN AND MAKES YOU MENTALLY ILL FOR BEING TRANSSEXUAL"
That's why it's so critical that transsexuality be a medical issue and not some social justice crap - the only acceptable paradigm for transsexuals is that they are "girls born, by a horrible accident of nature with boy parts", similar to a child born with Down's or some other congenital illness. Not a social justice statement, just a medical issue.
There is strong scientific evidence that true transsexuals (as opposed to the TG crowd) have brain structures that are female rather than male (or vice versa in the case of FTMs). Interestingly enough, this is often rejected by not only the Right and radical feminists, but also by many of the transgender kooks. They want it to all be about what a person asserts and not something that is objective.
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