Saturday, January 21, 2012

The Bathroom Issue, Again

It should be no surprise that "Autumn" Sandeen is again ranting about how men should have the right to invade the women's room.  He is bringing up the issue this time by implying that it is a civil rights issue comparable to Jim Crow laws.  This, of course, should not be surprising since Mr. Sandeen sees himself as the transgender Martin Luther King, Jr.  


The problem is, his views on this issue tend to prove that Sandeen is not a woman, trans or otherwise.  You see, in addition to the very real danger having men free to invade women's restrooms poses, there is another issue that is totally lost on men like Sandeen.


The women's room is, for real women, one of their very few places where they can find sanctuary from men.  And, of course, men like Sandeen want to invade this space.  They cannot comprehend that their might be legitimate reasons they are not welcome.  Ironically, it is the right to privacy, that is often cited in issues like gay rights (sex between consenting adults in private), abortion (the Roe v. Wade ruling is based on a right to privacy), and such.  For women, having a right to exclude men from the women's room is a privacy issue.  


The simple question, that has to be answered, is does one group's rights override another group's.  In some cases, the answer is simple.  Clearly, the rights of various races overrode the rights of a single race with regards to Jim Crow laws.  While the laws were primarily aimed at African-Americans, they could be extended to exclude others.  There were solid arguments for eliminating racial discrimination, not the least of which is that race is inherent, and not a matter of choice or behavior.  Another good argument is that there was not a legitimate basis for such laws, other than simple prejudice.  Some people did not like having to share space with people of another race.  There was not rational basis for such a choice, so it had to be denied legal status.


Clearly, we do need to make provision for those who are legitimately transsexual, as this is an actual medical condition.  But, we do not need to pander to the hobby of the transvestite, and the delusions of men like Sandeen.  As I have suggested before, for most transsexuals, this is not a problem.  I have never been challenged in the women's room.  In fact, it is not really a problem for those who actually make an effort to credibly present as a woman.  But I also waited until I was sure I would not cause a disruption in the women's room before I actually made a practice of using one.  I started out going to ones that were not heavily trafficked.  Then, as I became more confident, I would pretty much go in, use it, and get out as discretely as possible.  Then, finally, when I knew I would not have any problems, I just joined the rest of the women in going, and when appropriate checked my hair and make up, and even rested in the lounge area some provide.  


But, I did not see the women's room as something I had an absolute right to invade, nor did I see it as something of a challenge to be conquered.  I got no thrill out of being there.  It was simply a part of living my life, and once I was sure that my presence would not upset others, I moved on.


Sadly, those like Mr. Sandeen are more interested in deconstructing gender, destroying the binary, and otherwise eliminating societal standards that they simply don't like.  And they don't care how many women are hurt in the process, as long as the boys in the transgender club get their wayA


Now, if we apply these legal standards to transgender males invading women's spaces, things begin to fall a bit short.  Even if we set aside the risk of improper behavior (the fact that it is currently rare does not mean it cannot or will not increase as opportunities increase) we still have the privacy issue.  Now, most women, including myself, are very uncomfortable with the idea of sharing the women's room, and other women's spaces, with men.  I have no problem with someone who is a valid, surgically tracked transsexual who is undergoing the real life test being in the women's room, but I do have objections to crossdressers, and other transgender males invading my privacy.


Now, another issue that much be considered is whether or not transgender behavior should be protected by law.  Well, it fails right off the bat.  It is often only behavior.  Clearly, a transvestite (or crossdresser if we are going to be politically correct) does not have to crossdress.  They are not acting on the basis of an inherent characteristic.  They may become anxious if they do not crossdress, but there is nothing that arguably justifies their imposing this behavior on others to the extent that they should be allowed to violate the rights of women.  So, clearly, transvestites should not be allowed to invade the ladies room.


The next group that has to be considered is full-time crossdressers.  This would include men like Sandeen, who has made it clear that he has no desire to actually change his sex, though he does want to force society to pander to his delusions and call him a female legally.  Now, I wonder how the vast majority of women would feel about Mr. Sandeen being present in the women's room.  His behavior is hardly female, and he is clearly male brained.  Personally, I would not be comfortable sharing a rest room with him.  I imagine I am hardly alone in feeling that way.


And let's consider the larger implications of the sort of laws that Sandeen others push.  They are not content to have laws that address the issue of transgender people in bathrooms.  They want laws that are so broad that they would effectively open up the women's room to anyone, provided that they simply make the claim that during the period that they were in the women's room they were identifying as a female.  It would not matter how they were dressed, whether they were clean shave, or sporting a full beard, or whether they had a feminine hairstyle, or a crew cut.  They simply have to say, even if only momentarily, I FEEL LIKE A WOMAN.  and as if by magic, they are allowed to legally enter the women's room.  Clearly, unless it could be shown that they engaged in some over the top behavior (i.e. they raped or killed someone, or perhaps groped a woman) they would be immune from challenge.


It would not matter how much their presence upset women.  After all, we would just be unreasonably prejudiced.  Of course, as I have pointed out, Sandeen is not a woman.  The feelings, needs, and security of women is not his concern.  All he cares about is the alleged "rights" of him and other men who engage in the same behavior as he does.

17 comments:

Nicole H said...

As someone who is a post-op Transsexual, I do not believe in a gender binary. Gender identity is a spectrum and for many it is somewhat fluid. Obviously for people who have had SRS and pass sufficiently well, the bathroom issue is nonexistent. For persons who are not full time. non operative, or just do not pass well then the bathroom can be an issue. I suggest that each person take a real look at themselves and if they look like a "man in a dress" then they should use a Family/ Unisex restroom if available to avoid problems. If people continually stare at you or call you sir, that's a pretty good clue. That way you avoid creating hysteria in the restroom and avoid being embarrassed. If you have no other choice, then get in, close the door, do your business, wash your hands, and get out.
Lastly, as far as referring to Autumn Sandeen as "Mr.", that is very rude and disrespectful and an obvious attempt to provoke an angry response. Unless you are in her brain, you have no idea what her brain gender or sexuality is.
We can agree to disagree without insulting each other.

Sasha Birman said...

Jennifer, you seem to have an unhealthy obsession, with the toilet.

Just Jennifer said...

"As someone who is a post-op Transsexual, I do not believe in a gender binary. Gender identity is a spectrum and for many it is somewhat fluid. "

This is a curious assertion. If you do not believe in a "gender binary," then why did you have SRS? Why didn't you simply remain a so-called "woman with a penis?" It is, in part (and a large part at that) because I believe in the gender binary that I had surgery.

"Obviously for people who have had SRS and pass sufficiently well, the bathroom issue is nonexistent. For persons who are not full time. non operative, or just do not pass well then the bathroom can be an issue. I suggest that each person take a real look at themselves and if they look like a "man in a dress" then they should use a Family/ Unisex restroom if available to avoid problems. If people continually stare at you or call you sir, that's a pretty good clue. That way you avoid creating hysteria in the restroom and avoid being embarrassed. If you have no other choice, then get in, close the door, do your business, wash your hands, and get out."

Thank you. That is basically, a lot of what I am saying. It is the fact that some have no regard for the feelings of women that indicates, quite frankly, that they are not women. There is a strong misogynistic streak among TG extremists. The sad thing is, they often seem totally oblivious to it.

"Lastly, as far as referring to Autumn Sandeen as "Mr.", that is very rude and disrespectful and an obvious attempt to provoke an angry response. Unless you are in her brain, you have no idea what her brain gender or sexuality is.
We can agree to disagree without insulting each other."

Sorry, but no. It is simply a statement of fact. Sandeen gives no indication of being anything other than a man who has some serious emotional and behavioral issues, He had a long, and quite successful career as a man in the Navy. He has made some lame attempts to imply that he had problems, towards the end of his career, but the evidence tends to contradict him. Simply put, he would not have lasted 20 years if he had not been a man. He is like a lot of men, who after being a crossdresser for years, decides to make his hobby full time. After a successful life as a man, he decides to "retire a woman." Unfortunately, he merely retires a man in a dress.

I believe that words like "woman," "man," "male," and "female," actually mean something. I refuse to buy into the "I am a woman because I say I am a woman," silliness that some push.

Just Jennifer said...

"Jennifer, you seem to have an unhealthy obsession, with the toilet."

That is a rather lame attempt to insult. But it is classic TG silliness. Let's see, I am not the one obsessed with forcing women to accept men in the women's room. On the other hand, I do have a rather healthy obsession with the rights of women, such as myself.

Nicole H said...

Jennifer,
To answer your question, I had SRS because, although I believe in a gender spectrum, I find myself near the feminine polar end of the spectrum. Since we live in a culture that is based on a binary gender, it is expected we choose to present as one or the other to make others comfortable. Since I feel predominantly female, having SRS made sense and was the right decision for me. Actually, I do not feel any different than I did before SRS but now my body more accurately reflects my dominant identity.

Nicole H said...

I rarely see a misogynist streak among Transgender people, extremist or not, and I know quite a few. I've been in the TG community for 20 years. Could it possibly be that they don't like YOU and you are interpreting that as a dislike for women in general?
Just asking.

Just Jennifer said...

"To answer your question, I had SRS because, although I believe in a gender spectrum, I find myself near the feminine polar end of the spectrum. Since we live in a culture that is based on a binary gender, it is expected we choose to present as one or the other to make others comfortable. Since I feel predominantly female, having SRS made sense and was the right decision for me. Actually, I do not feel any different than I did before SRS but now my body more accurately reflects my dominant identity."

I never felt "male." I tried to fit in, but it was a vain effort. I don't buy into the idea of quantification of male and female. I am a woman, period. I was never "part man, part woman." That is a conceit that some claim, but I consider it bogus. I have known women who had masculine characteristics, but they never thought of themselves as anything other than women.

Sorry, but I don't care for such mental games.

Just Jennifer said...

"I rarely see a misogynist streak among Transgender people, extremist or not, and I know quite a few. I've been in the TG community for 20 years. Could it possibly be that they don't like YOU and you are interpreting that as a dislike for women in general?
Just asking."

As I said, the transgender types seem to be blind to this. But most men who are misogynistic will deny being so.

The simple fact that most transgender are more concerned with getting the boys into the women's room than with the feelings of women makes my point.

Nicole H said...

OMG,Jennifer you are a trip. Just because you always felt completely female does not negate the fact that most Trans people, if they are truly honest, will admit that they feel some combination of both. How could you not considering you were raised and socialized as a boy, I assume.
I think you are making a lot of generalizations about Transgender people that are just not true. I do find some gay men to be misogynist but never ever Trans people.
Anyway, your energy seems very combative and negative. I'm over it. Think whatever fantasy you like. Frankly, I could care less.

Just Jennifer said...

"OMG,Jennifer you are a trip. Just because you always felt completely female does not negate the fact that most Trans people, if they are truly honest, will admit that they feel some combination of both. How could you not considering you were raised and socialized as a boy, I assume.
I think you are making a lot of generalizations about Transgender people that are just not true. I do find some gay men to be misogynist but never ever Trans people.
Anyway, your energy seems very combative and negative. I'm over it. Think whatever fantasy you like. Frankly, I could care less."

Well, there's your problem right there...

I am not "trans." True transsexuals are quite rare. So, your assertion that "most" feel a certain way is possibly true, but only of those who are transgender, not transsexual. Simply having surgery does not mean you were truly transsexual. I can point to a number of people who have had full SRS who are not actually transsexual.

In any case, I notice, as is often typical transgender behavior that you resort to ad hominem attacks when someone declines to buy into your point of view.

As to my "energy," that is simply the consequence of having a bunch of men in dresses telling me how I can think or feel.

Deanna said...

Jennifer,
Do you remember the joke about an obviously wealthy man offering a woman a million dollars to sleep with him, then when she accepts, he changes the offer to $10.00, and she replies "What kind of woman do you think I am?"
If you remember, his answer was "You established that with your first answer, now we are just haggling over price."

Jennifer, you established you are a woman of transsexual history. You are now just haggling over the price of entry into the women's restroom. You must realize your argument sounds just as false as Autumn's to the women who originated the Womyn Born Womyn movement.

You, Autumn, me, and every other person that was identified at birth as being male are trying to justify use of the women's restroom. But our justification pales to those being intersex, and they pale compared to genetic women. Your justification is no better or worse than Autumn's. But your argumentation is still male egocentrism. Real women, and I am not refering to genetic women, as women such as the originators of WBW have similar male egocentrism, have more compassion and acceptace than your argument exhibits.

Deanna

Not your friend said...

Sorry Deena it doesn't wash.
We are different than the Tee-Gees who live a lifestyle and wish to hold on to their man parts also known as a neo clit.

your rationalization that we are like the Tee-Gees in some way is like saying that a woman born deaf even after corrective surgery is still part of the deaf group of people.

In your world Deena are boys born blind still seen as blind boys after surgery has restored their eyesight?

This is what you are saying Deena.

I don't have a thing in common with some tranny who dresses up like he was a 25 your old girl out on a man hunt on a Friday night. So lets get that Straight here and now.

Your obsession that we have something in common with some man in a dress needs to stop. This sexist shit went out with the 60s.

I do find it amusing that Sandeen can't keep his bathroom obsession at bay.
I guess this will be another year where we hear about Sandeen and the bathroom every month AGAIN.
Autumn you need a new therapist the 2 of you need to work on your bathroom obsession.

Deena said...

@ NYF. I just found this post and read the responses as well. When I got to yours I was very perplexed because you made a response to the person named Deanna but you spelled it as Deena. So now I guess I have to respond to this whole silly potty politics stuff.

My opinion has always been to keep male dominated legislative authorities and regulators out of the issue entirely. I don't want Barney Frank or any other man meddling in who can go into the ladies room. I am very comfortable letting women self regulate their own spaces. There are plenty of existing laws such as disturbing the peace which allow law enforcement personnel to act in situations where necessary. In fact those laws will continue to exist and will still allow a law enforcement official to cart someone off to the local jail whether or not the offender has ID stating F on it.

Our society has long recognized sex segregated public facilities as an acceptable instance of separate and not even equal. Why anyone would advocate changing that is beyond my rather limited comprehension.

Just Jennifer said...

"Do you remember the joke about an obviously wealthy man offering a woman a million dollars to sleep with him, then when she accepts, he changes the offer to $10.00, and she replies "What kind of woman do you think I am?"
If you remember, his answer was "You established that with your first answer, now we are just haggling over price."

Yes, I have heard this rather misogynistic joke.

"Jennifer, you established you are a woman of transsexual history. You are now just haggling over the price of entry into the women's restroom. You must realize your argument sounds just as false as Autumn's to the women who originated the Womyn Born Womyn movement."

Well, you presume that I consider the "Womyn Who Can't Spell Women" movement to be worth considering. I don't. I personally consider then to be, in their own way, as silly as Sandeen and his ilk. They represent a very tiny minority of women, and are not even taken seriously be other women.

"You, Autumn, me, and every other person that was identified at birth as being male are trying to justify use of the women's restroom. But our justification pales to those being intersex, and they pale compared to genetic women. Your justification is no better or worse than Autumn's. But your argumentation is still male egocentrism. Real women, and I am not refering to genetic women, as women such as the originators of WBW have similar male egocentrism, have more compassion and acceptace than your argument exhibits."

Sorry, but I am a woman. And I find no need to justify my presence in the women's room. It is where I belong. On the other hand, this is not true for men like Sandeen, and is especially not true for crossdressers.

And again, if someone is not able to enter the women's room without causing disruption, they really should stay out.

Ironically, the last time I went to the men's room (it was right before I began my RLT, and I happened to be dressed as a male) I pretty much had the effect of causing a disruption. I will never forget the look on the face of the poor gentleman who happened to see me standing there washing my hands. I fled and never returned to the men's room again. Not long before that, I was stopped by an employee at a Walmart who tried to warn me that I was headed into the wrong restroom, which, again, was the men's room.

People like Sandeen think that women offended by men in the women's room should just get over it. That is very misogynistic.

Not your friend said...

Sorry Deena my apologizes.

That was intended for Deanna.

Just Jennifer said...

"Sorry Deena it doesn't wash.
We are different than the Tee-Gees who live a lifestyle and wish to hold on to their man parts also known as a neo clit.

your rationalization that we are like the Tee-Gees in some way is like saying that a woman born deaf even after corrective surgery is still part of the deaf group of people.

In your world Deena are boys born blind still seen as blind boys after surgery has restored their eyesight?

This is what you are saying Deena.

I don't have a thing in common with some tranny who dresses up like he was a 25 your old girl out on a man hunt on a Friday night. So lets get that Straight here and now.

Your obsession that we have something in common with some man in a dress needs to stop. This sexist shit went out with the 60s.

I do find it amusing that Sandeen can't keep his bathroom obsession at bay.
I guess this will be another year where we hear about Sandeen and the bathroom every month AGAIN.
Autumn you need a new therapist the 2 of you need to work on your bathroom obsession."

I agree, except it was Deanna, not Deena.

Just Jennifer said...

"@ NYF. I just found this post and read the responses as well. When I got to yours I was very perplexed because you made a response to the person named Deanna but you spelled it as Deena. So now I guess I have to respond to this whole silly potty politics stuff."

The name thing confused me as well. I didn't catch the difference until this post. It did seem very odd....

"My opinion has always been to keep male dominated legislative authorities and regulators out of the issue entirely. I don't want Barney Frank or any other man meddling in who can go into the ladies room. I am very comfortable letting women self regulate their own spaces. There are plenty of existing laws such as disturbing the peace which allow law enforcement personnel to act in situations where necessary. In fact those laws will continue to exist and will still allow a law enforcement official to cart someone off to the local jail whether or not the offender has ID stating F on it."

This is true. Here in San Francisco, the laws are a bit broader than I would like. But, in spite of that, you rarely see any real problems. I have on occasion seen some pretty silly stuff, like men in dresses with full beards, but so far I not encountered such person in the women's room. And I know of one case where a transgender person who was not at all "passable" getting tossed out of the women's room at the library. Of course, that was made into a major case.

"Our society has long recognized sex segregated public facilities as an acceptable instance of separate and not even equal. Why anyone would advocate changing that is beyond my rather limited comprehension."

For crossdressers, both part time, and full time, the women's room is a major conquest. They get a big thrill out of the forbidden nature of it all. And I suspect for many, seeing the shocked and disgusted looks on the faces of women who have no recourse but to pretend they belong there is an even bigger thrill.

You have to remember, the current big obsession for the transgender extremists is being declared legally female while keeping their penises and other genitalia intact. This is just part of that game.